The news that racist scumbag Nick Griffin, the British Nazi Party leader, was pelted with eggs outside parliament today warmed the old Eastcliff cockles. However, I see Dr Biggles has leapt to his defence over on his 'Popular But Beseiged™' blog Thanet Life. Comparing the incident to the Roman Empire or something, Cllr Moores writes:
Nick Griffin should be allowed to speak unhindered by egg-throwing and placard wielding demonstrators from the UAF. After all, he will argue that we allow other small extremist groups to march unhindered through our streets, calling for the murder of our own soldiers or Holocaust Denial. By preventing his democratic rights as an elected MEP - no matter our own personal thoughts - we risk provoking the growth of the very extremism that politicians of all parties and their supporters should be working tirelessly to avoid.
Well excuse me, Dr M, but we're talking here about the Nick Griffin who, at his 1998 trial for inciting racial hatred, uttered this in his defence:
I am well aware that the orthodox opinion is that six million Jews were gassed and cremated and turned into lampshades. Orthodox opinion also once held that the world is flat ... I have reached the conclusion that the 'extermination' tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter witch-hysteria.
So I really think he does deserve to be called names and have eggs thrown at him at every opportunity. And, y'know, when John Prescott had an egg hurled at him during the 2001 election campaign, I'm willing to bet the good Tory doctor didn't start banging on about 'Roman Tribunes' and 'democratic rights'! No, he probably had a jolly good laugh like the rest of us. Oh the hypocrisy!
Local councillor defends BNP's 'democratic rights'
John Prescott gets egg on face
48 comments:
There is no suggestion in my Blog at any point that I have "Leapt to the defence" of Nick Griffin or the BNP. Quite the opposite in fact.
I note that the news channels, Sky, BBC and Channel 4 appear to support my own argument that action of the kind that we witnessed today plays neatly into the hands of the extremists by giving them the publicity they crave.
Channel 4 News reveals that the BNP called all the news organisations this morning and may have engineered what took place today and the protestors neatly fell into the trap!
Protest against facism by all means but protest peacefully and with dignity, showing the BNP for the thugs they are, with sound arguments rather than bad eggs!
Dr M,
"I note that the news channels, Sky, BBC and Channel 4 appear to support my own argument that action of the kind that we witnessed today plays neatly into the hands of the extremists by giving them the publicity they crave."
Why did they broadcast it then?
On the other hand, the egg throwers got publicity too - I didn't know the UAF existed until now and I think I'll join up! And if publicity surrounding Griffin's views being unacceptable makes the North West get off their collective jacksies and vote next time it can only be a good thing!
I get what you're saying, but sometimes there are gray areas.
Dr Moores - I think you protest too much?
Count me in for a subscription to the UAF - need a bit of exercise.
We have a Race Relations Act and we have the European 'Human Rights' Act. My own view is that in fighting political extremism of any flavour, denying freedom of speech is a mistake and that to meet the growing threat from Facism - now it has EU funding - we must work within the law.
I have a favourite scene from the film, 'A Man for all Seasons' which sums-up my opinion of working within the law:
William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
William Roper: Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
The media have behaved in an hysterical fashion, over the BNP it is a side show, Dr. M points are well made.
We live in a democracy and you have to put up with S**t sometimes.
ECR is like much of the media behaving like the big girls blouse he is
I am wholly opposed to the BNP but I think the current hysteria is just boosting them up.
Earlier this week, a Radio 4 presenter made a complete pratt of himself trying to antagonise Nick Griffin. It just sounded like sour grapes and Griffin batted him aside like an irritating fly. It made Griffin look as if he was a political heavyweight.
Think about it. Hundreds of thousands of people have voted for the BNP. You can argue that these people don't know what they are doing, but they are grown ups and they can vote for who they like.
Nick Griffin is now the representative of these people. He speaks on their behalf. If you deny him a platform by heckling etc. you are telling these people that their voices don't count; that their opinions don't matter.
How would you react if you were told that your voice didn't count; that your views were irrelevant? I'll wager it would make you more determined than ever.
Moreover, people who have never even thought about voting BNP will be attracted in droves as they see corrupt mainstream parties and carrot-munching liberals fighting side by side to silence the BNP.
If their views are so unpalatable why would you bother to shut them up? Just let them speak and, sooner or later, they'll hang themselves. Just answer the points they make and cool reason will win the day.
What I find utterly incredible is that David Cameron has managed to associate himself with the bunch of yobs who have made this dreadful blunder. An indication (and maybe not the first) that his judgement is flakey.
moores and freedom of speech in the same sentence! politice EH !!
I don't support them at all but they have a right to voice their policies so long as it doesn't cross the race relations and public order legislation.
Our Council Leader is seeking medical attention for a serious constipation problem.
He has Doctor Simon Bores head stuck up his arse!
Personally I would be happy to see Nick Griffin taken out and shot. All you appeasers out there have forgotten that we tried to make friends with Hitler and look where that got us.
Loathe them.
Don't fear them.
Engage them in debate.
Dismantle their views.
Ridicule them.
They'll hide away again.
Nope. Shoot them. Job done.
Pre-cancerous prostate man is having another sleepless night, by the look of it.
Matey, why not shoot yourself and leave it to actual people to sort society out!
I've not heard the BNP talk of killing anyone, or even hint at it, so far.
Going on the premise that violence is the last resort of the incompetent, it wouldn't be hard to see who was wrong in this demonstration.
I agree that people are just fueling the media hype!
West Cliff GB puts forward a good case. The problem is how do I engage in debate when I do not know what the BNP stand for.
Having read the policies set out in their website I see that they often refer to the British people, but do not say who the British are in their view. Perhaps a BNP member, or supporter, reading this would explain who they regard as British, the debate can then hopefully begin.
In a democracy - which yes we must maintain - we unfortunately saddle ourselves with a required degree of tolerance towards the likes of Griffin.
Just one point to pick up. It is completely wrong to presume that we can "reason" with his kind, and pressure them by exposing the flaws in their arguments and policies. With extremists, this cannot happen. Their membership numbers may rise and fall within set parameters, and their voter appeal may rise and fall according to the pressures electors feel exposed to, but a core will always remain.
You cannot respond to these people with the same measures and tools used by mainstream politicians.
We saw populist trial by media in the Stephen Lawrence case. We are now expected to ignore the fact that Stephen did not get justice.
As long as Griffin speaks within the law he has a right of free speech.
It is encouraging to now see ECR exercised about Holocaust Denial.
In 1999 two Thanet amateur historians gained entrance to a marquee at the War and Peace Show. I sent a statement by one of the historians to Lord Greville Janner. The pair had seen a holocaust denial lecture in progress to pseudo military cadets from Europe.
I also wrote to the show organiser Rex Cadman. At that time the Invicta Military Preservation Society sponsored a local pseudo military cadet group Kent Adventure Training Corps.
I believe that IMPS withdrew its sponsorship. I think (cllrs can inform us) that Margate Charter Trustees some time later stopped grants to the pseudo cadets (with allegedly Cllr Watt Ruffell speaking in favour of continuing public subsidy)
I tried to raise inquiry with KCC Youth Affiliation Services who had already been liaising for 18 months with Kent Police looking at pseudo cadet groups in the county.
It became clear that in Thanet the Police were concealing material information from KCC Youth Affiliation Services.
I do not know the results of further inquiry and was not able to obtain them by FOI application to KCC other than Kent Adventure Training Corps lost its KCC Youth Affiliation status in 2003.
Kent Police tried to (ab)use the protection from harassment law to stop my inquiries of KCC and National Childrens Home and TDC.
The facts are that one adult leader of KATC (George Maison) was arrested for paramilitary activity within TA 1987. And another gained work as a Reliance Security guard at Deal Barracks 1988/89 and was subject of a security warning that is not mentioned in the Admiralty Board of Inquiry into the 22.9.89 bombing.
ECR rather respects my activity exposing aquifer contamination at Thor and Sericol by FOI applications.
If he can look past my mischevious use of the word "Gippo" maybe he will conclude that old irritating bloke was right to irritate about holocaust denial in Kent ?
Only a coward throws eggs.
After Kent Police tried to warn me I was harassing KATC I was informed that one more letter (TO TDC, KCC or NCH) would get me a written caution and one more after that an arrest.
So I wrote two more letters immediately and copied them to Chief constable asking who wants to be first to try arresting me.
Cue silence and no further action by Kent Police who turned a blind eye to holocaust denial.
Not for the first time do you, drop in to middle class hysteria, Simon Moores comments are a damn sight more reasoned than much of your stuff.
We live in a democracy, and yet on any level, the reporting of the BNP's rather insignificant efforts have been met with undisguised bias from most of the media.
On a personal level most of us accept that the BNP is based on the twisted logic of racist cretins.
Along with BNP, UKIP and a rag bag of smaller parties it would appear that somewhere in region of half of the votes cast in Thanet, in the Euro lottery were for those who've had enough of Europe. Maybe that's the real story, rather that Simon Moores adherence to that once cherished British trait of fairness and free speech, however uncomfortable.
Eastcliff I understand you count yourself as a liberal except when it comes to voting that way, and upholding our countries liberal traditions.
Quite right about my liberal outlook, Tony. However, I draw the line at extremists of any persuasion. If people like you and Dr Moores have swallowed the BNP's propaganda, and are now sticking up for their 'democratic rights', god help us. They certainly wouldn't stick up for your rights if, heaven forbid, they were running this country.
As for Precancerous Prostate Man (1:15am, 1:48am), I think he illustrates perfectly the kind of extremism I'm talking about.
IT IS NECESSARY ONLY, FOR THE GOOD MAN TO DO NOTHING FOR EVIL TO TRIUMPH. – Edmund Burke 1729-1797.
Is that what we should do? Nothing?
This all rings a huge bell. Some people have short memories.
DrM is very keen to trumpet sacrifice by heroes when it suits, but not so keen to support the principles they died for.
And before it's said, they did not die so Fascism could flourish in a Democratic Society.
Eastcliff you seem as intolerant as the those you'd oppose.
You want to turn the other cheek old matey.
The BNP are a side show until media types like you make them the main attraction.
Seems to me the left are just as dangerous, I get a lot of criticism directed at me personally, the other day it was the insinuation I was some closet nazi but I'm used that low personel insult or even that orchestrated campaign a couple of years back when I someone whipped up a deliberate hate campaign against me.
As to swallowing propaganda, I question? and you seem to follow a rather unchallenging mainstream rarely venturing outside your comfort zone of toilet humour and disgusted of Ramsgate.
Still I suppose we both bore readers with ill-conceived middle age angst. Have a nice day!
Yes Tony. But I bore them more entertainingly than you.
And at least I only have a chip on the one shoulder!
so you accept I'm more balanced Eastcliff
Of course!
I find the comment below somewhat surprising:
"DrM is very keen to trumpet sacrifice by heroes when it suits, but not so keen to support the principles they died for."
I support our concept of justice and the principle of freedom of speech in a democratic society. This is, I suspect, what my grandparents and yours fought for.
Consider the consequences of efforts to silence Adolph Hitler in the 1930s. He became, as a consequence, both victim and a political martyr, went on to write 'Mein Kampf' and then recruited Ernst Rohm and the brown-shirted SA to protect him from further harrassment once freed from prison.
Nick Griffin is playing the vitim/martyr card for all its worth and he knows his history. Let's not be conned into playing his political game with all its potentially unpleasant unpleasant consequences.
Er, clearly he doesn't know his history if he denies the Holocaust, Dr M.
And surely it was the appeasers in the 30s that handed Hitler most of Europe. Y'know, the ones who said he was democratically elected, we had to deal with him, blah blah blah.
Take my advice and have a go at The Sun's 'Pelt Fascist Griffin With Rotten Eggs' game over on their website today. I guarantee within five minutes you'll feel like a million dollars!
Anyone who has read Mein Kampf will know from Hitler's chapters on propaganda that he was no fool and the today's politicians still follow many of his rules and suggestions. Nick Griffin is only too well aware that there is no such thing as bad publicity. The best way to deal with him is to block out his voice in newsreels like the media used to do to Gerry Adams and Co, or not to show him at all.
Presumably the good doctor was lording it up in that London with his then Labour masters at No 10 when we kicked the Nazis out of Margate in 2000. Methinks he is out of tune with his electorate and needs a history lesson himself.
let's not forget that many of the Establishment thought Hitler an ok person and worthy of support because he was anti-semitic and anti-Communist. Even the King was supportive in certain respects possibly one reason, Wallis Simpson not withstanding, that he never came back to Britain after the war.
WHERE was this UAF MOB when a group of Islamic exstremists were protesting against British soldiers that came home from Iraq?
Where were they when former terrorist Gerry Adams MP spoke in the very same spot in front of the House of Commons?
Where were they when a very brave Peter Tatchell stood up to Robert Mugabe's mob on his own?
I don't agree with far right politics anymore than I agree with extreme leftists politicians such as George Galloway MP or the Terrorist made good , Gerry Adams MP
BUT at least the likes of George Galloway MP, Nick Griffin MEP and Gerry Adams MP are democratically elected politicians, unlike the "thought police" rent-a-mob that want to deny the electorate the right to make up their own minds.
It seems that these so-called protesters would create an East German style state run by "the thought police" if they had their un-democratic way.
We need need to be afraid of this un-democratic self-righteous MOB more than we do Gerry Adams MP, Nick Griffin MEP and George Galloway MP.
Jim
Ramsgate
Minor point, Dr. Moores but Mein Kampf was first published in 1925 long before Hitler had any power or gave cause for concern to the peace movement or appeasers in Britain.
Those who had fought the Kaiser and his allies didn't want to face another war hence the attempt by many to try to stall events leading to war. The destruction of a generation of young men, the inevitable economic depression resulting from that and other factors meant a war was seen as impossible financially. The poor state of agriculture, the high levels of unemployment world-wide, the effect of reparations on the German economy etc. all indicated a world in a parlous state.
The prospect of a war, from our perspective, was resisted as long as possible although history might teach us it was inevitable our parents and grand-parents didn't see it that way until the war against fascism became the only course of action.
'My country right or wrong' was very much debated in the 1930s by academics and others. My own father left university as a volunteer to sign up as it was considered the only course of action. He'd been too young to go to Spain to fight Franco's Fascists or he'd have gone with the International Brigade.
I'm glad he's no longer alive to see Nick Griffin and his fascists take seats in the European Parliament. One result of the EU has been peace in Europe whatever else you and the Conservatives might think of the EU and its component parts.
Economic Historian
I WISH I WAS AS WISE AS YOU; ONLY PEOPLE LIKE YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO CHOOSE HOW THEY WANT TO VOTE!
THE THOUGHT POLICE KNOW BEST! WE MUST VOTE THE WAY YOU WANT US TOO!
Thats how democracy should work!
Sorry anon. 8.18 but I wasn't telling anyone how to vote. That's up to you but all I was doing was pointing out the facts as they related to the 1930s and the situation we faced regarding Fascists.
We live in a democracy and if people chose to vote for a fascist party that is their choice. I find it odd that people who had previously supported the Conservatives or Labour could switch to a party that preaches hatred of those who are not Caucasian.
Back in the summer of 1975, the June it snowed, I had a summer job working the deck chairs at Palm Bay. With not so many people on the sands, I had a chance to chat with the Beach inspector, a volunteer veteran of the International Brigade and the Spanish Civil War.
I'm sorry to say that I can't be sure of his name after all this time (Jim) but he was a devoted trade unionist and ran the local branch of NUPE I think.
An interesting man to talk with and learn from and a contemporary of Ernest Hemingway in Spain during the fight against Franco and Facism.
As a young girl in 1975, well below the age of consent, I remember an incident with a deckchair attendant who would, I guess, have been in his late teens. He said some pretty terrible things (as I thought at the time) and touched me quite inappropriately.
Though that was Joss Bay, as I recall, but I'd still like to meet him again and see how he likes being sexually intimidated to the point of tears.
I don't suppose you had a rapport with your counterparts next door, did you doc?
24 hours ago I asked on this blog if a BNP member or supporter would explain who they regard as British, none have done so. I put this down to the following possible reasons:
First - no BNP supporters have looked at this site.
Second - no BNP supporters are able or willing to explain who they regard as British.
The first reason could be due to ignorance of the site or illiteracy. The second reason could be due to confused thinking, lack of will or semi-literacy. We can each draw our own conclusions.
"None is", Hugin, not "none are". Get your own house in order before suggesting BNP voters are illiterate.
I would be interested to hear whether the BNP regard white Australians, Kiwis and Saffers as the kind of immigrant labour they would fine British companies for employing. I suspect not.
When people in Thanet start pushing their racist, anti immigrant views on me, I often politely inform them that I'm an immigrant too, and find their remarks quite offensive. At which point they usually say something like 'oh no, we don't mean you'. Which I take to mean 'we don't mean you because you speak English and you're white.'
The real irony is that if Griffin and Co get any real power, they will deny all you democrats your right to vote or voice any opposition.
How dare these DFLs come down here and try to impose their liberal, lefty London views on us country folk. Thanet got on very well without their money and ideals and talk of how lovely Ramsgate is for the last 30 years you only have to look around you to see that. Why, the car parks where all the attractions and historic buildings are the envy of the south east!
Thank you Anon 11:54am, but I cannot see that I used the phrase "none are". No matter, the main point is that no BNP supporters have offered an explanation of who they regard as British, and it is not possible to fully understand the BNP policies in the absence of that information.
You could always try their website, where they seem to outline pretty much what they're all about, Hugin(telect, not!).
If the link is a bit tricky to follow, try typing BNP into google and choosing the first result at the top of the page.
Thanks Lucy. I've read the policies set out in the BNP website but have been unable to find a satisfactory explanation of who they regard as British. I assume that, like many others, they use the word loosely in much the same way as their oponents accuse them of 'racism'.
Gawd!
Listen to the Gettesburg Address video on their front page. It pretty much answers your question.
After that, would you like me to take you down the shops?
Under the BNP, shops will be banned.
Thanks again Lucy. I've just had a quick look at a video on the site, Nick Griffin speaking in Prague, and he is the same man who leads a party objecting to migrants from eastern Europe? The irony is probably lost on many BNP members. (Don't mention the Sudetenland)
Thanks for the shopping trip offer, I'll take you up on that if you are paying.
You've got to admit, though, his election broadcasts were pretty funny!
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